App State ranked #25 in FBS

[Bootie]

Sluggo... isn't it a great deal more expensive to be an FBS program? Attendance or stadium capacity requirements, additional members to the team roster, scholarships, etc...? Do you think it's feasible for a school of Furman's size to reasonably accomplish such a transition and maintain it?

I agree with everything you are saying; but I'm also not seeing that people are happy with what the program is now.

I said it back in 1981 that the stadium needed 22k seats instead of 13k.
Dick told me I was right about that after the App State game.
Back then it would have been affordable; BUT NOOOOOOOO! Let's wait until we are desperate and it cost $25 Million.
So now let's wait another 30 years so it can cost a billion and then we can rehash all the same old excuses that got us here to begin with.

Happy or not, if it's not feasible to move up now, financially or otherwise, it's a moot point, isn't it?

Personally, I'm happy with where the program is and is heading, btw. We may be out of the running this season, but we competed for the national playoffs last year, and were close to doing so this year. I predict we will compete for the playoffs in coming years, too. As long as the program is doing that and putting an entertaining product on the field, I'm content.

The point may be moot; but it's only moot until someone has an answer.

Re: entertaining product on the field :
Between 10% and 30% of "fans" leave at halftime, so the entertainment value must be lacking.

Making the playoffs after not winning the conference is not my definition of competing for the national championship.
Wofford won the conference and stopped us in the playoffs; which was totally predictable.

Not to mention that it would take between 5 and 10 FCS playoff games at home to equal one decent FBS bowl game in revenue.

See "Payout" : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Dollar_General_Bowl (App State)

Scroll down to FCS on this link :
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristidosh ... f569ea2704

I'm looking at the math.

No one has posted an answer yet, so, until then, it appears we agree it's currently a moot point and will remain that way until an answer is provided. I'm not holding my breath for that.

The 10-30% of fans you speak of do not concern me. Their differing definition of entertainment does not affect mine.

If your focus is on revenue as compared to other programs and conferences, I don't know how you're ever going to be happy with Furman Football again unless you lower your expectations to match what is feasible.

[Affirm]

I still do not see Sluggo’s clear and serious answer on what he means by “fix it.”. My definition of fix it would be, as I’ve previously written, do what it takes (not impossible) to successfully compete (win more than lose) against a group of teams that include Wofford, Citadel, Mercer, and Samford, plus the likes of Elon, Colgate, and Richmond (whenever we have occasion to play those).

[fufanatic]

I think moving up to FBS would be a fool's errand and actually impossible considering the stadium requirements, attendance requirements, scholarship requirements, etc. I'm not sure of Rice's student enrollment, but we would more than likely be far and away the smallest school in FBS with a fan base that's growing ever older and name recognition that's tiny. I can't imagine a scenario where it would feasible for us to be able to afford these moves unless some mysterious donor drops at least 25-50 million into the university for that sole purpose.

My biggest concern honestly after attending my first home game in a few years is questioning if what we are doing now is sustainable with crowds that small and donors getting older? Can we afford to keep losing more and more money year after year if crowds keep getting smaller? Will we have to start routinely playing two FBS games every year? Recruiting more locally than regionally/nationally? Will we have to bank on men's hoops winning NCAA games to bring in much-needed revenue? I don't have the answers, but I know it's not just Furman considering these questions. It's most schools not in the Power 5.

For now, if the program can get back to a point where they are routinely competing for SoCon titles and playoff spots, with the occasional run towards the semifinals or finals, I would be content.

[sluggo]

Can we afford to keep losing more and more money year after year if crowds keep getting smaller?

No.

[sluggo]

I still do not see Sluggo’s clear and serious answer on what he means by “fix it.”. My definition of fix it would be, as I’ve previously written, do what it takes (not impossible) to successfully compete (win more than lose) against a group of teams that include Wofford, Citadel, Mercer, and Samford, plus the likes of Elon, Colgate, and Richmond (whenever we have occasion to play those).

The problem is money.
Beating SoCon teams doesn't fix the problem because there is not enough money in SoCon football games anymore.


15 year Plan simplified:

1. Say FU to the SoCon
2. Go independent
3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years)

After 5 years

4. Expand Paladin Stadium to 22k seats
5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

6. Expand Paladin Stadium to 35k seats
7 . Book small FBS and medium FBS at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

8. Expand Paladin Stadium to 45k seats
9. Now become FBS
10. Join an FBS conference

That can be spun with different numbers and time periods but that's the basic idea.
It's about schedule and stadium capacity.
Schedule draws the crowd, capacity allows you to make more money.

Times have changed; we can't keep expecting big crowds to show up for Wofford and PC games.
Time to get over that; because that is over.

App, GS and Marshal left the SoCon because of money.
Half of the conference left and It's like we can't read the writing on the wall.

[Bootie]

I still do not see Sluggo’s clear and serious answer on what he means by “fix it.”. My definition of fix it would be, as I’ve previously written, do what it takes (not impossible) to successfully compete (win more than lose) against a group of teams that include Wofford, Citadel, Mercer, and Samford, plus the likes of Elon, Colgate, and Richmond (whenever we have occasion to play those).

The problem is money.
Beating SoCon teams doesn't fix the problem because there is not enough money in SoCon football games anymore.


15 year Plan simplified:

1. Say FU to the SoCon
2. Go independent
3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years)

After 5 years

4. Expand Paladin Stadium to 22k seats
5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

6. Expand Paladin Stadium to 35k seats
7 . Book small FBS and medium FBS at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

8. Expand Paladin Stadium to 45k seats
9. Now become FBS
10. Join an FBS conference

That can be spun with different numbers and time periods but that's the basic idea.
It's about schedule and stadium capacity.
Schedule draws the crowd, capacity allows you to make more money.

Times have changed; we can't keep expecting big crowds to show up for Wofford and PC games.
Time to get over that; because that is over.

App, GS and Marshal left the SoCon because of money.
Half of the conference left and It's like we can't read the writing on the wall.

Interesting. Seems like a tough ask to be a 5-6 team and also justify increasing stadium size to hold a crowd that's likely not showing up anyway. The other thing I wonder is, of all FBS schools, what is the smallest enrollment, and how does the size of the student body play into that... is it possible to have a FBS football program with the small student body and alumni base as Furman has.

[sluggo]

I still do not see Sluggo’s clear and serious answer on what he means by “fix it.”. My definition of fix it would be, as I’ve previously written, do what it takes (not impossible) to successfully compete (win more than lose) against a group of teams that include Wofford, Citadel, Mercer, and Samford, plus the likes of Elon, Colgate, and Richmond (whenever we have occasion to play those).

The problem is money.
Beating SoCon teams doesn't fix the problem because there is not enough money in SoCon football games anymore.


15 year Plan simplified:

1. Say FU to the SoCon
2. Go independent
3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years)

After 5 years

4. Expand Paladin Stadium to 22k seats
5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

6. Expand Paladin Stadium to 35k seats
7 . Book small FBS and medium FBS at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

8. Expand Paladin Stadium to 45k seats
9. Now become FBS
10. Join an FBS conference

That can be spun with different numbers and time periods but that's the basic idea.
It's about schedule and stadium capacity.
Schedule draws the crowd, capacity allows you to make more money.

Times have changed; we can't keep expecting big crowds to show up for Wofford and PC games.
Time to get over that; because that is over.

App, GS and Marshal left the SoCon because of money.
Half of the conference left and It's like we can't read the writing on the wall.

Interesting. Seems like a tough ask to be a 5-6 team and also justify increasing stadium size to hold a crowd that's likely not showing up anyway. The other thing I wonder is, of all FBS schools, what is the smallest enrollment, and how does the size of the student body play into that... is it possible to have a FBS football program with the small student body and alumni base as Furman has.

35 years ago the stadium was packed and failure to expand it then is one reason the crowd got smaller.
People got tired of not being able to get a ticket for a decent game, so they just gave up.

There were never enough students at Furman to fill the stadium; that's an imaginary factor.
Fans fill the stadium not students and alumni. Clemson has 25k studentsl not 80k.
Get fans by playing teams that people want to see Furman play.
Nobody cares about a Furman VS PC,Wofford,Elon,ETSU,WC,VMI game anymore.
Just give up on that dead schedule; it's over with. I'm a big fan but don't want to see those games anymore.
If the recruits feel like I do then it's a BIG problem with getting top players signed.

Season tickets have minimal attraction because the home schedule is weak.
Fans rather save the money and travel to the one big game per year.

Fu football is in a situation where it's not "who you are" but "who you play".
Who we play has everything to do with shrinking crowds and who we play is limited by not having enough
seats to play bigger programs.

We have to sell the venue; not just the team.
We need "big" games at home to sell the venue.
There are zero big games at home and it's been that way for over 15 years.

This program is circling the drain but every idea to plug the drain is met with extreme skepticism and sometimes asinine insults.
And that is be the biggest problem with change.

Furman should have moved to the ACC in 1953 and the move would have paid for itself 100 times over by now.
But no, the same negative talk we have today is what was said back then, so seeking the bottom is a pattern in FU football. Division II is the most likely next step for Furman because everything I said will be treated as foolish talk.
Then it will be non-scholarship football and then the program will just be ended forever.
I think this way because the trend has been downward since 1953.
Playing PC at PC was the lowest I ever sank to see a game. I hope to never do that again.
What a gigantic let down.

Look at the chart further down this page which shows the history of the Southern Conference membership:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Conference

That chart explains everything I said in the original post of this thread.


Now match up the years on that chart with Clemson's stadium expansions :

81,500 (2007–present)
81,473 (1991–2006)
79,575 (1988–1990)
79,854 (1986–1987)
74,724 (1985)
73,915 (1983–1984)
57,307 (1982)
53,306 (1978–1981)
43,451 (1963–1977)
43,309 (1960–1962)
40,000 (1958–1959)
20,500 (1942–1957) It only took 5 seasons in the ACC before they NEEDED to expand.

No logical reason why the same would not have happened for Furman at the same time because it happened to every other team that joined.

Wake Forest is still only 35k seats but still booking the home games with Clemson and the like.

So the 3 year plan is :

Build 35k seats and play bigger teams at home to sell the venue.

But yeah; that's just crazy is all I'm going to hear about that.
No matter the clear facts, it's just a waste of breath because of the internal resistance and fear of failure.
But failure is coming anyway at the current rate of decline.
So why not give it a shot by making some more cheaply built seats.
Make the seats cheap enough to tear down if everyone feels embarrassed if the plan fails.
I seriously doubt it would fail since FBS teams still put us on the schedule anyway; but they can only play us 1/2 as
much because they can only play us at their home.

[FUBeAR]

I still do not see Sluggo’s clear and serious answer on what he means by “fix it.”. My definition of fix it would be, as I’ve previously written, do what it takes (not impossible) to successfully compete (win more than lose) against a group of teams that include Wofford, Citadel, Mercer, and Samford, plus the likes of Elon, Colgate, and Richmond (whenever we have occasion to play those).

The problem is money.
Beating SoCon teams doesn't fix the problem because there is not enough money in SoCon football games anymore.


15 year Plan simplified:

1. Say FU to the SoCon
2. Go independent
3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years)

After 5 years

4. Expand Paladin Stadium to 22k seats
5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

6. Expand Paladin Stadium to 35k seats
7 . Book small FBS and medium FBS at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

8. Expand Paladin Stadium to 45k seats
9. Now become FBS
10. Join an FBS conference

That can be spun with different numbers and time periods but that's the basic idea.
It's about schedule and stadium capacity.
Schedule draws the crowd, capacity allows you to make more money.

Times have changed; we can't keep expecting big crowds to show up for Wofford and PC games.
Time to get over that; because that is over.

App, GS and Marshal left the SoCon because of money.
Half of the conference left and It's like we can't read the writing on the wall.

Challenges...
2. Go independent - Can Go Independent FCS, but can’t go Independent FBS. Can’t move to FBS without Conference Affiliation via invitation. Liberty was able to do it as an Independent after years of seeking Conference affiliation & then, only because the NCAA feared Liberty, with enrollment of over 100,000, had enough money to pay their lawyers to tie up the NCAA’s, the various Conferences’, and individual schools’ lawyers in religious discrimination/restraint of trade lawsuits forever. They’ll use that same leverage to join an FBS P5 Conference if they want to, but the NCAA has placated them for now.

3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years) - Possible, but very challenging as an FCS program. With NCAA Bowl requirements, essentially, limiting the number of non-FBS games an FBS School can ‘risk,’ it ain’t always easy-peasy lining up 1 or 2 of those per year...particularly if they feel there is ANY chance you might beat them. Probably easier to pick up some G5 games, but the payouts are much less than the P5 ones.

5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...) - Ain’t no FBS Team gonna play AT an FCS Team...unless a Hurricane requires a change of venue of a previously scheduled game AT the FBS school. So, we can add 6,000 seats, but I hope you have a VERY large family to fill them up!

Oh...I see now that you didn’t have us moving up to FBS until AFTER the above & AFTER you have successfully talked multiple Medium-sized FBS Teams, who don’t, in most cases, fill their own stadiums half full, to playing AT an FCS School in our 22,000 seat facility. I guess you are thinking the extra revenue from those expected ‘home crowds’ (which would not happen cuz Arkansas State Fans ain’t coming to GreenVegas to watch their Team play AT FCS Furman on a Tuesday night) would provide the ability to generate enough of a financial inducement to get a FBS Teams to become the laughingstock of their Subdivision & bear the full brunt of the wrath of their fan base by going to an FCS School for a game, when they are already alienating their fans by playing a number of their games on mid-week ‘School nights’ to get their shrinking TV money.

So...there’s ‘the rub.’ That ain’t gonna happen 66. Can’t control the ego’s of other folks without HUGE KWAN. Sorry.

Personally, I would hate for Furman to go FBS. But, if the University decided that’s what they wanted to do, there are a lot more steps AND it would most certainly require expanding the student body as rapidly and as largely as possible to generate enough student activity fees to primarily finance the growth of the stadium, Scholarship $’s, etc., etc., etc.

Wipe off your dry-erase board and start over. I think your best course of action would be to use that board to design & build a time machine to take us all back to 1953 and then we can (maybe) get on the bus with the rest of the departing schools that branched into becoming the ACC. I have more confidence in YOU being able to do that than I do in anyone being able to execute your 15 year plan.

[Affirm]

I still do not see Sluggo’s clear and serious answer on what he means by “fix it.”. My definition of fix it would be, as I’ve previously written, do what it takes (not impossible) to successfully compete (win more than lose) against a group of teams that include Wofford, Citadel, Mercer, and Samford, plus the likes of Elon, Colgate, and Richmond (whenever we have occasion to play those).

The problem is money.
Beating SoCon teams doesn't fix the problem because there is not enough money in SoCon football games anymore.


15 year Plan simplified:

1. Say FU to the SoCon
2. Go independent
3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years)

After 5 years

4. Expand Paladin Stadium to 22k seats
5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

6. Expand Paladin Stadium to 35k seats
7 . Book small FBS and medium FBS at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

8. Expand Paladin Stadium to 45k seats
9. Now become FBS
10. Join an FBS conference

That can be spun with different numbers and time periods but that's the basic idea.
It's about schedule and stadium capacity.
Schedule draws the crowd, capacity allows you to make more money.

Times have changed; we can't keep expecting big crowds to show up for Wofford and PC games.
Time to get over that; because that is over.

App, GS and Marshal left the SoCon because of money.
Half of the conference left and It's like we can't read the writing on the wall.

Thanks.

[Flagman]

I want some of what Sluggo has been smokin'.

The stadium expansions alone would cost $20-50M each over those years. So far, we haven't learned who won the $900M lottery payout and whether they'll be sending a significant amount to Furman.

[cavedweller2]

This is a great thread. Keep it up guys.

[Affirm]

I still do not see Sluggo’s clear and serious answer on what he means by “fix it.”. My definition of fix it would be, as I’ve previously written, do what it takes (not impossible) to successfully compete (win more than lose) against a group of teams that include Wofford, Citadel, Mercer, and Samford, plus the likes of Elon, Colgate, and Richmond (whenever we have occasion to play those).

The problem is money.
Beating SoCon teams doesn't fix the problem because there is not enough money in SoCon football games anymore.


15 year Plan simplified:

1. Say FU to the SoCon
2. Go independent
3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years)

After 5 years

4. Expand Paladin Stadium to 22k seats
5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

6. Expand Paladin Stadium to 35k seats
7 . Book small FBS and medium FBS at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

8. Expand Paladin Stadium to 45k seats
9. Now become FBS
10. Join an FBS conference

That can be spun with different numbers and time periods but that's the basic idea.
It's about schedule and stadium capacity.
Schedule draws the crowd, capacity allows you to make more money.

Times have changed; we can't keep expecting big crowds to show up for Wofford and PC games.
Time to get over that; because that is over.

App, GS and Marshal left the SoCon because of money.
Half of the conference left and It's like we can't read the writing on the wall.

Interesting. Seems like a tough ask to be a 5-6 team and also justify increasing stadium size to hold a crowd that's likely not showing up anyway. The other thing I wonder is, of all FBS schools, what is the smallest enrollment, and how does the size of the student body play into that... is it possible to have a FBS football program with the small student body and alumni base as Furman has.

I believe University of Tulsa is the smallest school in FBS, with about 4,400 students including undergraduate and graduate students. The Federal Government’s 3 larger military academies may be smaller than Tulsa, though those academies are totally undergraduate students. The academies are “a different animal” in regard to their finances, including for their athletics programs as well as everything else.

[Affirm]

This is a great thread. Keep it up guys.

I agree that it is a great thread. Unfortunately, I expect that you are being sarcastic in your 2 sentences.

[Affirm]

I still do not see Sluggo’s clear and serious answer on what he means by “fix it.”. My definition of fix it would be, as I’ve previously written, do what it takes (not impossible) to successfully compete (win more than lose) against a group of teams that include Wofford, Citadel, Mercer, and Samford, plus the likes of Elon, Colgate, and Richmond (whenever we have occasion to play those).

The problem is money.
Beating SoCon teams doesn't fix the problem because there is not enough money in SoCon football games anymore.


15 year Plan simplified:

1. Say FU to the SoCon
2. Go independent
3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years)

After 5 years

4. Expand Paladin Stadium to 22k seats
5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

6. Expand Paladin Stadium to 35k seats
7 . Book small FBS and medium FBS at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

8. Expand Paladin Stadium to 45k seats
9. Now become FBS
10. Join an FBS conference

That can be spun with different numbers and time periods but that's the basic idea.
It's about schedule and stadium capacity.
Schedule draws the crowd, capacity allows you to make more money.

Times have changed; we can't keep expecting big crowds to show up for Wofford and PC games.
Time to get over that; because that is over.

App, GS and Marshal left the SoCon because of money.
Half of the conference left and It's like we can't read the writing on the wall.

Challenges...
2. Go independent - Can Go Independent FCS, but can’t go Independent FBS. Can’t move to FBS without Conference Affiliation via invitation. Liberty was able to do it as an Independent after years of seeking Conference affiliation & then, only because the NCAA feared Liberty, with enrollment of over 100,000, had enough money to pay their lawyers to tie up the NCAA’s, the various Conferences’, and individual schools’ lawyers in religious discrimination/restraint of trade lawsuits forever. They’ll use that same leverage to join an FBS P5 Conference if they want to, but the NCAA has placated them for now.

3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years) - Possible, but very challenging as an FCS program. With NCAA Bowl requirements, essentially, limiting the number of non-FBS games an FBS School can ‘risk,’ it ain’t always easy-peasy lining up 1 or 2 of those per year...particularly if they feel there is ANY chance you might beat them. Probably easier to pick up some G5 games, but the payouts are much less than the P5 ones.

5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...) - Ain’t no FBS Team gonna play AT an FCS Team...unless a Hurricane requires a change of venue of a previously scheduled game AT the FBS school. So, we can add 6,000 seats, but I hope you have a VERY large family to fill them up!

Oh...I see now that you didn’t have us moving up to FBS until AFTER the above & AFTER you have successfully talked multiple Medium-sized FBS Teams, who don’t, in most cases, fill their own stadiums half full, to playing AT an FCS School in our 22,000 seat facility. I guess you are thinking the extra revenue from those expected ‘home crowds’ (which would not happen cuz Arkansas State Fans ain’t coming to GreenVegas to watch their Team play AT FCS Furman on a Tuesday night) would provide the ability to generate enough of a financial inducement to get a FBS Teams to become the laughingstock of their Subdivision & bear the full brunt of the wrath of their fan base by going to an FCS School for a game, when they are already alienating their fans by playing a number of their games on mid-week ‘School nights’ to get their shrinking TV money.

So...there’s ‘the rub.’ That ain’t gonna happen 66. Can’t control the ego’s of other folks without HUGE KWAN. Sorry.

Personally, I would hate for Furman to go FBS. But, if the University decided that’s what they wanted to do, there are a lot more steps AND it would most certainly require expanding the student body as rapidly and as largely as possible to generate enough student activity fees to primarily finance the growth of the stadium, Scholarship $’s, etc., etc., etc.

Wipe off your dry-erase board and start over. I think your best course of action would be to use that board to design & build a time machine to take us all back to 1953 and then we can (maybe) get on the bus with the rest of the departing schools that branched into becoming the ACC. I have more confidence in YOU being able to do that than I do in anyone being able to execute your 15 year plan.

Most SoCon schools are bigger than Furman. A number of them may have FBS aspirations, but I am not aware of any that are presently planning to move up. I think the reason is that it is unrealistically expensive to do so.

[cavedweller2]

This is a great thread. Keep it up guys.

I agree that it is a great thread. Unfortunately, I expect that you are being sarcastic in your 2 sentences.

No Sarcasm. Good discussion. Since East Carolina came into Sirrine with Carl Lester Crumpler, (1975?)who is the biggest name opponent outside of the conference tocome to Greenville to play?