App State ranked #25 in FBS

[Flagman]

This is a great thread. Keep it up guys.

I agree that it is a great thread. Unfortunately, I expect that you are being sarcastic in your 2 sentences.

No Sarcasm. Good discussion. Since East Carolina came into Sirrine with Carl Lester Crumpler, (1975?)who is the biggest name opponent outside of the conference tocome to Greenville to play?

Wasn't ECU in the SoCon in "75?

[FUBeAR]

*Carlester

[sluggo]

I still do not see Sluggo’s clear and serious answer on what he means by “fix it.”. My definition of fix it would be, as I’ve previously written, do what it takes (not impossible) to successfully compete (win more than lose) against a group of teams that include Wofford, Citadel, Mercer, and Samford, plus the likes of Elon, Colgate, and Richmond (whenever we have occasion to play those).

The problem is money.
Beating SoCon teams doesn't fix the problem because there is not enough money in SoCon football games anymore.


15 year Plan simplified:

1. Say FU to the SoCon
2. Go independent
3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years)

After 5 years

4. Expand Paladin Stadium to 22k seats
5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

6. Expand Paladin Stadium to 35k seats
7 . Book small FBS and medium FBS at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

8. Expand Paladin Stadium to 45k seats
9. Now become FBS
10. Join an FBS conference

That can be spun with different numbers and time periods but that's the basic idea.
It's about schedule and stadium capacity.
Schedule draws the crowd, capacity allows you to make more money.

Times have changed; we can't keep expecting big crowds to show up for Wofford and PC games.
Time to get over that; because that is over.

App, GS and Marshal left the SoCon because of money.
Half of the conference left and It's like we can't read the writing on the wall.

Challenges...
2. Go independent - Can Go Independent FCS, but can’t go Independent FBS. Can’t move to FBS without Conference Affiliation via invitation. Liberty was able to do it as an Independent after years of seeking Conference affiliation & then, only because the NCAA feared Liberty, with enrollment of over 100,000, had enough money to pay their lawyers to tie up the NCAA’s, the various Conferences’, and individual schools’ lawyers in religious discrimination/restraint of trade lawsuits forever. They’ll use that same leverage to join an FBS P5 Conference if they want to, but the NCAA has placated them for now.

3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years) - Possible, but very challenging as an FCS program. With NCAA Bowl requirements, essentially, limiting the number of non-FBS games an FBS School can ‘risk,’ it ain’t always easy-peasy lining up 1 or 2 of those per year...particularly if they feel there is ANY chance you might beat them. Probably easier to pick up some G5 games, but the payouts are much less than the P5 ones.

5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...) - Ain’t no FBS Team gonna play AT an FCS Team...unless a Hurricane requires a change of venue of a previously scheduled game AT the FBS school. So, we can add 6,000 seats, but I hope you have a VERY large family to fill them up!

Oh...I see now that you didn’t have us moving up to FBS until AFTER the above & AFTER you have successfully talked multiple Medium-sized FBS Teams, who don’t, in most cases, fill their own stadiums half full, to playing AT an FCS School in our 22,000 seat facility. I guess you are thinking the extra revenue from those expected ‘home crowds’ (which would not happen cuz Arkansas State Fans ain’t coming to GreenVegas to watch their Team play AT FCS Furman on a Tuesday night) would provide the ability to generate enough of a financial inducement to get a FBS Teams to become the laughingstock of their Subdivision & bear the full brunt of the wrath of their fan base by going to an FCS School for a game, when they are already alienating their fans by playing a number of their games on mid-week ‘School nights’ to get their shrinking TV money.

So...there’s ‘the rub.’ That ain’t gonna happen 66. Can’t control the ego’s of other folks without HUGE KWAN. Sorry.

Personally, I would hate for Furman to go FBS. But, if the University decided that’s what they wanted to do, there are a lot more steps AND it would most certainly require expanding the student body as rapidly and as largely as possible to generate enough student activity fees to primarily finance the growth of the stadium, Scholarship $’s, etc., etc., etc.

Wipe off your dry-erase board and start over. I think your best course of action would be to use that board to design & build a time machine to take us all back to 1953 and then we can (maybe) get on the bus with the rest of the departing schools that branched into becoming the ACC. I have more confidence in YOU being able to do that than I do in anyone being able to execute your 15 year plan.

I appreciate your analysis and I think you are just as accurate about this as you are about figuring out who was stopping up the shower drain in our Woodwinds apartment.

[Affirm]

This is a great thread. Keep it up guys.

I agree that it is a great thread. Unfortunately, I expect that you are being sarcastic in your 2 sentences.

No Sarcasm. Good discussion. Since East Carolina came into Sirrine with Carl Lester Crumpler, (1975?)who is the biggest name opponent outside of the conference tocome to Greenville to play?

Wasn't ECU in the SoCon in "75?

ECU’s most recent game at Furman was in 1976, when we beat them. Pat Dye was their coach. That was ECU’s final year in the SoCon.
To get to a year when we had biggest name opponents outside the conference come to Furman, I think it would be 1962, Clemson. Then, years 1960, 1958, 1955, when some of the visiting name opponents included teams such as South Carolina, Florida State, and NC State.

[sluggo]

Here is my one year plan :

1. Just give up.

2. Join Div II SIAC (I promise to attend all Benedict vs Furman games in Columbia)

Just give up and join the SIAC because their game attendance is as high as the SoCon ( with Mercer saving the rest of us)

See game attendance :
https://thesiac.com/news/2017/4/13/FBAL ... path=fball

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Sout ... all_season

Sorry, but the SoCon might as well be Div II when it comes to crowd size, which is the money.

[sluggo]

Here is my ZERO year plan :

1. Do nothing
2. Keep dreaming that something magic will happen all on it's own.

I think we have a winner with this plan because it's the only plan that will ever get done.

See ya'll at Charlie W. Johnson Stadium; it's so much better than PC.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0182923 ... a=!3m1!1e3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_W ... on_Stadium

[FUBeAR]

I still do not see Sluggo’s clear and serious answer on what he means by “fix it.”. My definition of fix it would be, as I’ve previously written, do what it takes (not impossible) to successfully compete (win more than lose) against a group of teams that include Wofford, Citadel, Mercer, and Samford, plus the likes of Elon, Colgate, and Richmond (whenever we have occasion to play those).

The problem is money.
Beating SoCon teams doesn't fix the problem because there is not enough money in SoCon football games anymore.


15 year Plan simplified:

1. Say FU to the SoCon
2. Go independent
3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years)

After 5 years

4. Expand Paladin Stadium to 22k seats
5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

6. Expand Paladin Stadium to 35k seats
7 . Book small FBS and medium FBS at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

8. Expand Paladin Stadium to 45k seats
9. Now become FBS
10. Join an FBS conference

That can be spun with different numbers and time periods but that's the basic idea.
It's about schedule and stadium capacity.
Schedule draws the crowd, capacity allows you to make more money.

Times have changed; we can't keep expecting big crowds to show up for Wofford and PC games.
Time to get over that; because that is over.

App, GS and Marshal left the SoCon because of money.
Half of the conference left and It's like we can't read the writing on the wall.

Challenges...
2. Go independent - Can Go Independent FCS, but can’t go Independent FBS. Can’t move to FBS without Conference Affiliation via invitation. Liberty was able to do it as an Independent after years of seeking Conference affiliation & then, only because the NCAA feared Liberty, with enrollment of over 100,000, had enough money to pay their lawyers to tie up the NCAA’s, the various Conferences’, and individual schools’ lawyers in religious discrimination/restraint of trade lawsuits forever. They’ll use that same leverage to join an FBS P5 Conference if they want to, but the NCAA has placated them for now.

3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years) - Possible, but very challenging as an FCS program. With NCAA Bowl requirements, essentially, limiting the number of non-FBS games an FBS School can ‘risk,’ it ain’t always easy-peasy lining up 1 or 2 of those per year...particularly if they feel there is ANY chance you might beat them. Probably easier to pick up some G5 games, but the payouts are much less than the P5 ones.

5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...) - Ain’t no FBS Team gonna play AT an FCS Team...unless a Hurricane requires a change of venue of a previously scheduled game AT the FBS school. So, we can add 6,000 seats, but I hope you have a VERY large family to fill them up!

Oh...I see now that you didn’t have us moving up to FBS until AFTER the above & AFTER you have successfully talked multiple Medium-sized FBS Teams, who don’t, in most cases, fill their own stadiums half full, to playing AT an FCS School in our 22,000 seat facility. I guess you are thinking the extra revenue from those expected ‘home crowds’ (which would not happen cuz Arkansas State Fans ain’t coming to GreenVegas to watch their Team play AT FCS Furman on a Tuesday night) would provide the ability to generate enough of a financial inducement to get a FBS Teams to become the laughingstock of their Subdivision & bear the full brunt of the wrath of their fan base by going to an FCS School for a game, when they are already alienating their fans by playing a number of their games on mid-week ‘School nights’ to get their shrinking TV money.

So...there’s ‘the rub.’ That ain’t gonna happen 66. Can’t control the ego’s of other folks without HUGE KWAN. Sorry.

Personally, I would hate for Furman to go FBS. But, if the University decided that’s what they wanted to do, there are a lot more steps AND it would most certainly require expanding the student body as rapidly and as largely as possible to generate enough student activity fees to primarily finance the growth of the stadium, Scholarship $’s, etc., etc., etc.

Wipe off your dry-erase board and start over. I think your best course of action would be to use that board to design & build a time machine to take us all back to 1953 and then we can (maybe) get on the bus with the rest of the departing schools that branched into becoming the ACC. I have more confidence in YOU being able to do that than I do in anyone being able to execute your 15 year plan.

I appreciate your analysis and I think you are just as accurate about this as you are about figuring out who was stopping up the shower drain in our Woodwinds apartment.

So...you’re not going to work on that time machine?

[sluggo]

I still do not see Sluggo’s clear and serious answer on what he means by “fix it.”. My definition of fix it would be, as I’ve previously written, do what it takes (not impossible) to successfully compete (win more than lose) against a group of teams that include Wofford, Citadel, Mercer, and Samford, plus the likes of Elon, Colgate, and Richmond (whenever we have occasion to play those).

The problem is money.
Beating SoCon teams doesn't fix the problem because there is not enough money in SoCon football games anymore.


15 year Plan simplified:

1. Say FU to the SoCon
2. Go independent
3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years)

After 5 years

4. Expand Paladin Stadium to 22k seats
5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

6. Expand Paladin Stadium to 35k seats
7 . Book small FBS and medium FBS at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

8. Expand Paladin Stadium to 45k seats
9. Now become FBS
10. Join an FBS conference

That can be spun with different numbers and time periods but that's the basic idea.
It's about schedule and stadium capacity.
Schedule draws the crowd, capacity allows you to make more money.

Times have changed; we can't keep expecting big crowds to show up for Wofford and PC games.
Time to get over that; because that is over.

App, GS and Marshal left the SoCon because of money.
Half of the conference left and It's like we can't read the writing on the wall.

Challenges...
2. Go independent - Can Go Independent FCS, but can’t go Independent FBS. Can’t move to FBS without Conference Affiliation via invitation. Liberty was able to do it as an Independent after years of seeking Conference affiliation & then, only because the NCAA feared Liberty, with enrollment of over 100,000, had enough money to pay their lawyers to tie up the NCAA’s, the various Conferences’, and individual schools’ lawyers in religious discrimination/restraint of trade lawsuits forever. They’ll use that same leverage to join an FBS P5 Conference if they want to, but the NCAA has placated them for now.

3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years) - Possible, but very challenging as an FCS program. With NCAA Bowl requirements, essentially, limiting the number of non-FBS games an FBS School can ‘risk,’ it ain’t always easy-peasy lining up 1 or 2 of those per year...particularly if they feel there is ANY chance you might beat them. Probably easier to pick up some G5 games, but the payouts are much less than the P5 ones.

5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...) - Ain’t no FBS Team gonna play AT an FCS Team...unless a Hurricane requires a change of venue of a previously scheduled game AT the FBS school. So, we can add 6,000 seats, but I hope you have a VERY large family to fill them up!

Oh...I see now that you didn’t have us moving up to FBS until AFTER the above & AFTER you have successfully talked multiple Medium-sized FBS Teams, who don’t, in most cases, fill their own stadiums half full, to playing AT an FCS School in our 22,000 seat facility. I guess you are thinking the extra revenue from those expected ‘home crowds’ (which would not happen cuz Arkansas State Fans ain’t coming to GreenVegas to watch their Team play AT FCS Furman on a Tuesday night) would provide the ability to generate enough of a financial inducement to get a FBS Teams to become the laughingstock of their Subdivision & bear the full brunt of the wrath of their fan base by going to an FCS School for a game, when they are already alienating their fans by playing a number of their games on mid-week ‘School nights’ to get their shrinking TV money.

So...there’s ‘the rub.’ That ain’t gonna happen 66. Can’t control the ego’s of other folks without HUGE KWAN. Sorry.

Personally, I would hate for Furman to go FBS. But, if the University decided that’s what they wanted to do, there are a lot more steps AND it would most certainly require expanding the student body as rapidly and as largely as possible to generate enough student activity fees to primarily finance the growth of the stadium, Scholarship $’s, etc., etc., etc.

Wipe off your dry-erase board and start over. I think your best course of action would be to use that board to design & build a time machine to take us all back to 1953 and then we can (maybe) get on the bus with the rest of the departing schools that branched into becoming the ACC. I have more confidence in YOU being able to do that than I do in anyone being able to execute your 15 year plan.

I appreciate your analysis and I think you are just as accurate about this as you are about figuring out who was stopping up the shower drain in our Woodwinds apartment.

So...you’re not going to work on that time machine?

I'm going to bed now so I can dream about it and gather more energy for my internet arguments.
I've got to win them all you know. Never lose and internet argument!

[Affirm]

My 5-year plan:
Encourage every GoPaladins.com reader to realize and to remember that Furman football NEEDS a lot of support (financial and otherwise), so that we can return to and then continue to compete successfully at the highest level realistically possible (which level I believe includes being able to at least beat the likes of Wofford, Samford, Mercer, Citadel more than we lose to them). I believe that always acting like and talking like “Furman football is back” and predicting victory over every upcoming opponent does not necessarily advance the goal of getting people to realize Furman football needs their increased and ongoing support (financial and otherwise). Encouraging every GoPaladins.com reader to realize and remember the need and the potential will help to also spread the same encouragement to others. Yes, I want to encourage the current team to succeed, and I want to also encourage long-term and medium-term maximum improvement for the program overall.

[Bootie]

Sluggo, thanks for your detail. I think your plan has balls, but more than a few flaws.
a) I think it would involve spending a whole bunch of millions of dollars to chase after a similar bunch of millions of dollars. Not much net gain (if any) to make all that worthwhile.
b) Success in sports is cyclical. In the down years, I imagine your plan resulting in 10K fans (optimistic) in your 45K stadium.
c) Your plan's foundation involves chasing after money and fame, which has the wisdom of one spending most of their weekly paycheck on lottery tickets.
d) It just seems unrealistic for a school like Furman to do that. I'd rather us compete with the schools on our level than try to be something we're not.

Do you really think the money to fund such a venture could be drummed up among Furman supporters? I do not. I think if you added up all the money it would take to get to your 45K stadium and all the added expenses of expanding the program, along with the lack of revenue that would be brought in during some down years, I imagine you'd be looking at a negative balance in the end.

[cavedweller2]

Attendance in the 'boro last night for the Appies and the iggles was 19252. At least that is what is reported. Two 1 loss teams with ranked #25 in the country. Big time college football at it's finest.

[Affirm]

I still do not see Sluggo’s clear and serious answer on what he means by “fix it.”. My definition of fix it would be, as I’ve previously written, do what it takes (not impossible) to successfully compete (win more than lose) against a group of teams that include Wofford, Citadel, Mercer, and Samford, plus the likes of Elon, Colgate, and Richmond (whenever we have occasion to play those).

The problem is money.
Beating SoCon teams doesn't fix the problem because there is not enough money in SoCon football games anymore.


15 year Plan simplified:

1. Say FU to the SoCon
2. Go independent
3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years)

After 5 years

4. Expand Paladin Stadium to 22k seats
5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

6. Expand Paladin Stadium to 35k seats
7 . Book small FBS and medium FBS at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...)

After 5 years

8. Expand Paladin Stadium to 45k seats
9. Now become FBS
10. Join an FBS conference

That can be spun with different numbers and time periods but that's the basic idea.
It's about schedule and stadium capacity.
Schedule draws the crowd, capacity allows you to make more money.

Times have changed; we can't keep expecting big crowds to show up for Wofford and PC games.
Time to get over that; because that is over.

App, GS and Marshal left the SoCon because of money.
Half of the conference left and It's like we can't read the writing on the wall.

Challenges...
2. Go independent - Can Go Independent FCS, but can’t go Independent FBS. Can’t move to FBS without Conference Affiliation via invitation. Liberty was able to do it as an Independent after years of seeking Conference affiliation & then, only because the NCAA feared Liberty, with enrollment of over 100,000, had enough money to pay their lawyers to tie up the NCAA’s, the various Conferences’, and individual schools’ lawyers in religious discrimination/restraint of trade lawsuits forever. They’ll use that same leverage to join an FBS P5 Conference if they want to, but the NCAA has placated them for now.

3. Try to play 5 FBS away games per year (yes, record will be 5-6 and worse for a few years) - Possible, but very challenging as an FCS program. With NCAA Bowl requirements, essentially, limiting the number of non-FBS games an FBS School can ‘risk,’ it ain’t always easy-peasy lining up 1 or 2 of those per year...particularly if they feel there is ANY chance you might beat them. Probably easier to pick up some G5 games, but the payouts are much less than the P5 ones.

5 . Book smaller FBS (App, Marshal, Coastal) at home and bigger FBS away and top FCS at home (North D State etc...) - Ain’t no FBS Team gonna play AT an FCS Team...unless a Hurricane requires a change of venue of a previously scheduled game AT the FBS school. So, we can add 6,000 seats, but I hope you have a VERY large family to fill them up!

Oh...I see now that you didn’t have us moving up to FBS until AFTER the above & AFTER you have successfully talked multiple Medium-sized FBS Teams, who don’t, in most cases, fill their own stadiums half full, to playing AT an FCS School in our 22,000 seat facility. I guess you are thinking the extra revenue from those expected ‘home crowds’ (which would not happen cuz Arkansas State Fans ain’t coming to GreenVegas to watch their Team play AT FCS Furman on a Tuesday night) would provide the ability to generate enough of a financial inducement to get a FBS Teams to become the laughingstock of their Subdivision & bear the full brunt of the wrath of their fan base by going to an FCS School for a game, when they are already alienating their fans by playing a number of their games on mid-week ‘School nights’ to get their shrinking TV money.

So...there’s ‘the rub.’ That ain’t gonna happen 66. Can’t control the ego’s of other folks without HUGE KWAN. Sorry.

Personally, I would hate for Furman to go FBS. But, if the University decided that’s what they wanted to do, there are a lot more steps AND it would most certainly require expanding the student body as rapidly and as largely as possible to generate enough student activity fees to primarily finance the growth of the stadium, Scholarship $’s, etc., etc., etc.

Wipe off your dry-erase board and start over. I think your best course of action would be to use that board to design & build a time machine to take us all back to 1953 and then we can (maybe) get on the bus with the rest of the departing schools that branched into becoming the ACC. I have more confidence in YOU being able to do that than I do in anyone being able to execute your 15 year plan.

Said time machine could be used to re-visit decision to leave downtown campus. Just kidding of course.

[fufanatic]

This is a great thread. Keep it up guys.

I agree that it is a great thread. Unfortunately, I expect that you are being sarcastic in your 2 sentences.

No Sarcasm. Good discussion. Since East Carolina came into Sirrine with Carl Lester Crumpler, (1975?)who is the biggest name opponent outside of the conference tocome to Greenville to play?

UMass, James Madison or Jacksonville State? All playoff games. Hofstra and they don't have football anymore. I think UConn and UCF came to Furman before going FBS. While I understand Sluggo's point about people not being super excited about the current SoCon opponents anymore, I truly believe that if Furman gets back to top 5 in the country again, PS will again be able to at least sell out the home side to get us over 10K. Maybe more. At this point, the average college football fan has probably heard of less than 5 FCS schools and Furman ain't one of them. So there really aren't a ton of great options for big-time FCS out of conference games. James Madison is not traveling here. Montana, North Dakota State, Northern Iowa, etc. are not traveling here. Our best bets are Jacksonville State or Kennesaw State probably and even then most people haven't heard of them.

[Affirm]

This is a great thread. Keep it up guys.

I agree that it is a great thread. Unfortunately, I expect that you are being sarcastic in your 2 sentences.

No Sarcasm. Good discussion. Since East Carolina came into Sirrine with Carl Lester Crumpler, (1975?)who is the biggest name opponent outside of the conference tocome to Greenville to play?

UMass, James Madison or Jacksonville State? All playoff games. Hofstra and they don't have football anymore. I think UConn and UCF came to Furman before going FBS. While I understand Sluggo's point about people not being super excited about the current SoCon opponents anymore, I truly believe that if Furman gets back to top 5 in the country again, PS will again be able to at least sell out the home side to get us over 10K. Maybe more. At this point, the average college football fan has probably heard of less than 5 FCS schools and Furman ain't one of them. So there really aren't a ton of great options for big-time FCS out of conference games. James Madison is not traveling here. Montana, North Dakota State, Northern Iowa, etc. are not traveling here. Our best bets are Jacksonville State or Kennesaw State probably and even then most people haven't heard of them.

The average football fan (and the average person in general) probably has heard of these universities:
Delaware, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Maine, Villanova, Georgetown, Penn, Columbia, Yale, Harvard, William & Mary, Richmond, Holy Cross, Brown.
I expect we could get a home and home contract with at least 3 or 4 of those, and others that I named elsewhere, for the purpose of recognition and public interest.
I have no problem with Jacksonville State and Kennesaw State, but they are not the only options.

[sluggo]

Attendance in the 'boro last night for the Appies and the iggles was 19252. At least that is what is reported. Two 1 loss teams with ranked #25 in the country. Big time college football at it's finest.

I remember those teams; they used to be in some other conference though.
I can't remember that conference now. Oh wait, I remember now : The SoftCon.